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- Thread starter dgibbons
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Didn't know I was "bitching". I simply said the way he went about the trade war has not worked. He is now out of office and he had to...what do they call it when they give money to people who have not heard it the capitalistic way..."handout"?
I just wish people would call "subsidies", corporate bailouts, TARP etc what it is....socialism. The other names are simply easier to swallow.
FWIW, implementing social programs is what changed the United States from being just another country to being the most powerful country on the planet. Unchecked socialism is bad......unchecked capitalism is arguably worse. I don't want either. If it weren't for "socialism" where I was given grants to go to college, I wouldn't be able to pay over $40k per year in taxes. I have a wonderful life because of social programs that existed when I was a kid.
Every time I hear some jackwagon use the word "socialism", I can't help but think that it's a person who doesn't understand anything about what it's like to actually struggle to survive. Every person who has ever bitched about "socialism" should be forced to live in the hood on welfare levels of income for six months to understand what it's like to not know if your family is going to be able to survive.
I grew up knowing what government cheese tasted like. My family was on welfare for a few years. I was so poor that one Christmas, our tree was a 4' tree that we cut from our own property and decorated with popcorn because we couldn't afford ornaments. There are definitely people that abuse the system but millions of people that benefit in a positive way. And again, I'm able to pay over $40k per year in taxes thanks to that social system that kept me from starving to death as a kid and allowed me to get a good education. So, the next time you feel the need to talk about "socialism", perhaps consider that you are just showing yourself as a clueless fool instead of an enlightened champion of righteousness.
EDIT: It's easy to read this and think, "libtard!", but the truth is that I was a registered Republican and moderate conservative in my years after high school. I was a big believer that people just needed to work hard and improve themselves because I did. As I've gotten older, I've come to realize that there are two problems with that. 1) People, in general, are stupid and struggle to see outside their own situation and make the changes needed to alter that situation and 2) we live in a predatory system that preys on the mindlessness of people and uses their weaknesses against them for profit. The longer that a person exists on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, the harder it is to get out of it.
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Good for you. Go write a letter to the editor.
Trump is your president for the next month.
There is a massive difference between social welfare programs and socialism. I know you understand that, but to categorize them in even remotely the same context is extremely misleading.
The "fear" of socialism is being deliberately driven by the alt (progressive) left and the liberal media as much (or more) than it is by conservatives. It's no secret than the progressives want to move towards socialism. To pretend otherwise is as ignorant as the republicans who argue against all social welfare programs.
Where do I stand as a right leaning libertarian? I vehemently oppose the talk of replacing capitalism with socialism. I am completely on board with tax reform that more aggressively targets the "super wealthy," but there must also be strict measures to oversee and punish welfare abuse. People must work. The best, brightest, and hardest working SHOULD be incentivized financially. If you've ever had major surgery (I have), you want your final thoughts before general anesthesia to be "this surgical team is elite", not "I heard they got into medical school on an affirmative action waiver."
Homelessness needs to be made illegal. If you are homeless, your options are addition treatment/mental health treatment/trade program training. If after several "relapses," you go to work shelters or prison. On the judicial side of government, my platform is pro-choice and equality for everyone with harsh punishments for those who can't stay in their lanes.
Government should remain out of our daily lives as much as possible. People need opportunities, not welfare checks. OK, rant over....for now.
Why would I do that? You claimed Trump did more and I simply pointed out the ineffectiveness of what he did, especially doing it unilaterally. Kind of like saying Wulff spent four more hours a day on recruiting than Leach, so he did more.
What is it called when a business who had the best year ever had to shut down for 45 days, gets 9 million in PPP money, doesn't pay it back and just bought a 5 million dollar plane?
This happened over and over again. Sure sounds like the classic definition of welfare, socialism, but on a much bigger scale.
You want to criminalize homelessness? If you are going to finance programs for drug addiction and mental illness (Not solely the causes of homlessness) why not merely subsidize affordable housing? In a highly capitalistic society in a counrty with a troublesome Gini Coeficient rating, haves and have nots will be a highly visible and unfortunate by-product of a system that is not working very well for a too-high portion of its citizens. Taihtsat
Dear CougEd- Doing something is more than doing nothing. Those with a basic understanding of the English language, logic and common sense understand that. Your ignorance and stupidity is an issue for you to solve. Good luck.
I absolutely want to criminalize homelessness, but I want to triage them into the appropriate treatment programs. *THAT* is how I envision social welfare working. We need a massive spend in this area. Halfway homes, so to speak, where people can get legitimate help. If you're relapsing due to addiction, you get a few chances. After that, it's prison. Harsh but fair.
People are living in tents while tax payers fund their addictions. That's not welfare, it's lunacy. We cant do that. I am absolutely OK with subsidizing affordable housing as well, but again, you've got to work. You've got to be seeking treatment. If you can't, society can only wait for you so long.
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Dear IgnorantEd- the United States of America has been a mixed economy since at least 1933 when the New Deal was implemented.
Bro, come to Portland. The city is putting up tents for them now. These aren't the grubby, old, homeless vet you see on the Salvation army ads, these are young people who have willingly checked out of society but are willing to take all the hand outs. Its appauling.
To that end, check this out (its long):
So we agree that a public investment is in order, just differ on where or how exactly it goes. And i think we can agree it is very complicatec and many-layered a problem.
To me, housing is preferred to jail. It's more humane and should reflect the best and highest ideals of our country. We know there will always be the poor, Jesus was quoting saying essentially the same thing. We already did away with debtor prison, I don't want to go back to that era in a sense.
So, some are homeless but living in their cars. Do you qualify them in the same way?
There are some that are still "down on their luck." There are some that are mentally ill. But a lot just want to get high.
Homeless shelters have to be located within a prescribed distance (I can't recall what it is) of various services- health, police, fire, etc. So that means the homeless shelters need to be built close enough to where those services already exist, or those services must be built along with the shelter where they don't already exist.
Krusty, Flat, CP et al...
One of the issue is that there is this strawman that the other person who doesn't walk lockstep with whatever you believe in holds the opposite, most abhorrent version of that opinion, eg: "oh, you don't want housing reform? So homeless just get to die on the streets then?". Its bullshit non-starters like that, that has been modeled for us by our elected officials for years, that keeps us from finding real solutions that are somewhere in the middle.
The same has been going on for the past year with this fcking covid bullshit. Personally, I feel the draconian lockdown measures are unfair, hypocritical, and ineffective (the way they are being rollled out) for preventing the spread of Covid. I base this on the anecdotal evidence of seeing malls and major retail outlets open and packed to the gills both before Thanksgiving and now during the Xmas shopping season, churches are open to some extent, X business is open but Y business that operates similarly cannot be open because... reasons. The "science" behind closing gyms (quick google search) is cell phone data that they plugged into a model that showed what would happen... according to the model. There is zero contact tracing that has shown gyms (even while they were open) are spreader locations. Zero. But I digress...
My point is/ was, there is no civil political discourse any longer. Someone disagrees with someone else, he's quick to tell them what a POS they are and they should go kill themselves, and its just a reflection of society as a whole. Its really sad.
I've lived in Western WA for decades now, and as an outside salesman, I've worked in PDX extensively. I know exactly what you mean. It's ridiculous. As you said, young people are willingly living in tents. We're not talking about 5-10% of the homeless either.
Most people, be they conservative or liberal, have sympathetic hearts to those who are in legitimate need. I truly believe that. This homeless/addiction issue has completely clouded the situation for everyone. Taxpayers (like me) don't want to pay for addicts in tents. I have extended family members who have chosen the slacker, handout life. I won't give them a dime. My parents, back in their younger years, offered to pay for college and trade schooling for several of them. They didn't want that. They didn't want to work. We all know people like this.
Just once....one time...I'd like to hear a town hall of liberal politicians discussing programs and punishments to catch and criminalize welfare abuse. Discussions about dealing with the tens of thousands of people who are beyond rehabilitation. It never gets talked about. We talk about the taxing the wealthy. We talk about people paying their fair share. We need to also talk about playing hardball with people who have extinguished their welfare benefits. We need to talk about cleaning up our metropolitan areas and removing freeloaders. It doesn't happen because vote pandering is the only thing politicians do.
I never said there weren't - see my post above.
I know there are people who genuinely need help, and I believe we as a society should offer them that help, but the makeshift RV lots, burned out cars... people down on their luck don't live like that. They don't live like they've lost all sense of dignity and self-respect. These are heroine/ meth addicts taking advantage of the system.
The party of rainbows and unicorns can't look society in the face and admit that there will always be dregs... you can't help these people, no matter the amount of handouts, subsidized housing, etc you give them. Do we discard them as a society? I can't answer that, but I don't want to spend time and resources that could be allocated to those more deserving on those who put no effort into fixing their own situation. Idgaf, make them pick up trash (they could start with their own so the poor trash guy doesnt have to get stuck with a used fcking needle...), paint the grafitti, whatever... but the libs have labeled that work as degrading and humiliating and there shouldn't be a quid pro quo for "human services." Too lowly for them, but fine for the low income father of 3 to do every day.
It's a tough deal. Homelessness is different in Kansas than it is in Washington. Any would be "freeloaders" only need one winter in Kansas to realize that living on the street is total BS. As such, our homeless population is very much dominated by the mentally ill. The Sedgwick County Sheriff spoke at a meeting last year and he said that 60% of their calls are repeat offenders struggling with drug addiction and mental illness but our society does not provide them with any tools to help them so they cycle in and out of jail all the time.
Don't forget that you can't send people to a lot/ most 12 step programs because there is a sprinkle of Jesus in some of them, and heaven (pun intended) forbid we force religion on someone... I mean, there couldn't be anything else worthwhile in the program, right?
I'm open to the idea of decriminalization like what just happened in Oregon - sending junkies to jail doesn't get them clean - but this is just a half measure that doesn't have the other half which is actually getting these people clean. Which means Oregon will become a safe haven for junkies up and down the west coast. Its gonna get bad before it gets worse, and Portland is going to get everything it deserves after they get rid of their police department as well.
It's a giant mess and I'm not going to say that I have the answer. I will say that when I was in Seattle a couple years ago, I was blown away by all the tents lining streets at night in February.
No body has the answer, we have to figure it out. But instead both sides are too busy pointing fingers and yelling "that won't work!". Fcking sh!t show, all of it.
I guess? i don't know. I've never been an addict, and its not my field of expertise. From what I understand, even within the field there are strong differing opinions on how best to address addiction. The one addict I know was drinking his negative emotions and anxiety away. He's clean now, but still has some of the bad behavior that existed while he was not, so I'm not sure how far along he is in his recovery, but I'm not here to judge - we all have stuff we deal with.
Correct and doing more and not getting anything accomplished and doing less and getting the same result is getting the same result.
If it makes you feel better, I applaud Trump for bringing it up, and I applaud Trump for trying something different in N Korea. And with that I am a 180 with the results and lack of a plan.
By the way, Paul Wulff "tried".
Well that is certainly one take. They just want to get high. And please tell me how the evil of marijuana, the gate way drug to harder drugs. Any other backwards crap you want to spew.
The heroin and meth heads are a primary result of Oxy. We passed it out like it was aspirin. The real villians were the ones who got a slap on the wrist. If I was going after Perdue family, I would make sure they were selling all their assets, and had a 600k house to live in and drive around in a Chevette. What they and the docs did is reprehensible
So no, they just don't want to hang around and get high. Think about how low their bar is, how far rock bottom is just to get their next fix.
Now, from this Libtard, even the best intentioned idea did not work. You cant treat it like it is homeless problem, you treat it like so many who have studied it. You have to let them hit rock bottom, but rock bottom isn't the streets of Seattle. That should no longer be a choice. Any decent rehab counselor would say that is enabling the behavior.
Three choices. Move back in with family (not a choice really), Jail, or rehab at a facility like McNeil Island or an old army base.
But no, they just don't "want" to be high.
I think both of the KOMO documentaries hit the nail on the head to both the cause and the solution.
I think the city of Seattle should study the Rhode Island model and do whatever it takes to implement it. That would be a start.
But then that would go against their permissive policies which is the other half of the problem. And that is also why many homeless people move here. It is the place to be if you are homeless because they can do whatever they want without consequence.
I think the city of Seattle should study the Rhode Island model and do whatever it takes to implement it. That would be a start.
But then that would go against their permissive policies which is the other half of the problem. And that is also why many homeless people move here. It is the place to be if you are homeless because they can do whatever they want without consequence.
One of my sisters is a social worker (and a Coug). She worked for the state of Idaho for many years in what I considered to be a rather enlightened program...the state recognized that institutionalizing folks was expensive. And Idaho is cheap. So they hired social workers (via a contractor) to do what my sister did...she had 10 clients that she saw each for a half day every week. She helped balance their check books, checked with the landlords to make sure no problems, MADE SURE THEY WERE TAKING THEIR MEDS, worked with their doctor's office & pharmacy to make sure prescriptions got renewed, helped with job applications and employer communication, made sure the tax returns got filed...what ever was needed, all the little stuff that trips up people who are marginally capable of independent living. The goal was to provide assistance in keeping them living independently and as productive as possible. That saved Idaho a lot of money. She was very proud that in doing this for almost 4 years she never lost one. By "lost one", I mean homeless, institutionalized or dead.
Homelessness has been my personal charity for many years, and I am current on the statistics for the LA basin. No experience with Portland or Seattle, and don't claim to know. Here, in round numbers about 2/3 are mentally ill, addicted, or both. The mentally ill are particularly susceptible to addiction because it is easy to self-medicate. The remaining 1/3 come from a wide variety of backgrounds & situations. When I read about "criminalizing" homelessness, I don't have the knee jerk negative reaction that probably many have. Those with mental issues need to be treated. If they can't bring themselves to be treated, then they need to be institutionalized without their consent in order to receive treatment, with the goal of independent living when they leave treatment. The "criminalizing" part doesn't work without the treatment and post-treatment path to follow; it has to be done as a complete program. Similar to immigration, just using enforcement without the rest of the pieces results in an incomplete and failed puzzle. Mentally ill folks often cannot make good decisions regarding their own welfare, but we can't expect the police to be social workers and our jails will never be treatment centers. And whether we end up with dormitories, apartments or some other combination of independent or semi-independent lodging, it is a ton less expensive to equip the mentally ill to live independently with support than it is to permanently institutionalize them.
Homelessness has been my personal charity for many years, and I am current on the statistics for the LA basin. No experience with Portland or Seattle, and don't claim to know. Here, in round numbers about 2/3 are mentally ill, addicted, or both. The mentally ill are particularly susceptible to addiction because it is easy to self-medicate. The remaining 1/3 come from a wide variety of backgrounds & situations. When I read about "criminalizing" homelessness, I don't have the knee jerk negative reaction that probably many have. Those with mental issues need to be treated. If they can't bring themselves to be treated, then they need to be institutionalized without their consent in order to receive treatment, with the goal of independent living when they leave treatment. The "criminalizing" part doesn't work without the treatment and post-treatment path to follow; it has to be done as a complete program. Similar to immigration, just using enforcement without the rest of the pieces results in an incomplete and failed puzzle. Mentally ill folks often cannot make good decisions regarding their own welfare, but we can't expect the police to be social workers and our jails will never be treatment centers. And whether we end up with dormitories, apartments or some other combination of independent or semi-independent lodging, it is a ton less expensive to equip the mentally ill to live independently with support than it is to permanently institutionalize them.
You just nailed a big part of our local sheriff's presentation. Kansas used to have a hospital for the mentally ill but it was defunded years ago. He specifically mentioned it's closing as a negative turning point for the mentally ill in Kansas and a rise in crime by the mentally ill folks who were just dumped out of the system.
And? Haven't heard anyone call those protections socialism that everyone is so scared about. If you are honest, it really isn't about socialism, but who gets the money. Lazy down and outers, or very wealthy multimillionaires who received 9 million in PPP, had his best year in sales and was flush enough to buy a five million dollar jet.
I just prefer honesty that is all. Everyone gets hand outs, it is just a matter of where one thinks those hand outs should go.
Dblithers...no BS....you don't get a participation ribbon for acknowledging the China problem. What was accomplished going at it alone? Increase in prices we pay for goods and giving billions to the farmers. What was the net result? We gave money to the farmers. Like I said, Wulff tried....
Interesting in your first paragraph you attempt to make the point of "strawman-ing" by actually strawmanning our arguments. Nowhere has any of us demonized or mischaracterized the position of another in the way you described. Taihtsat
Bingo ... as usual Dblitherson you nailed it. I prefer the auto dealers who are having record years not get 9 mil in PPP but rather. 11 mil so they don’t have to go cheap on their personal plane of five mil, much rather fly around in a 7 mil plane .
I can’t tell if your jealousy exceeds your naïveté. Sorry you didn’t get the bailout you wanted. Rather than wallow in self-pity, how about you do something. Report PPP fraud to the US Attorney for the Western District of Washington. Easy to find on Google.
It’s also rather amusing that you think a $2.2 trillion stimulus bill that was slapped together in about two weeks, all while congress and the president were essentially saying line up at the trough wasn’t going to be abused in some manner.
Well that is certainly one take . Not jealous at all. Just pointing out one persons socialism is another persons PPP.
Why would I be jealous or pissed I didn’t get a bailout. I didn’t ask for one , didn’t need one, nor would I take one .My industry is making money like no other year .. ever .
